plane
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- Jan 10, 2023
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Hey all, I am plane. You may or may not have met me on the server, regardless, I am not an incredibly well qualified person to discuss such things, but am a player who has in the past spent a good chunk of money and time on this server. I am going to discuss firstly what it means to be Pay To Win (referred to often as P2W) in the context of a Garry's Mod DarkRP server and what that means for a player who does not intend to spend money and their experiences roleplaying on this server.
Section 1: Defining What it Means to be Pay to Win
Let us begin by defining what pay to win means in an actual game environment. Pay to win can be defined as any option that allows a player to pay money to progress or receive an advantage against players who have not spent the money they have. This area can be hard to define for many online games. Is a game pay to win the moment you can purchase an XP boost to obtain levels faster than other players? Not necessarily depending on what mechanics exist to allow players who do not pay any money to earn the same exact amount of XP in the game.
Some developers will take note of this, saying that free players can spend additional time on their game to obtain the same exact levels as the player who paid to obtain the aforementioned boost. The idea here is to find a line drawn in the sand, so to speak. In this scenario, how much time does the player who is not paying any money have to invest to obtain the same amount of levels obtained by the user who paid money? You want to reward players for purchasing (we will touch on the word "donate" later) items like an XP boost while balancing it out for players who are free to play. At least, that is what developers who intend to make a healthy and fun game for players would do. However, the oh so mighty marketing department of many major corporations crashes the door down with their eyes popping from their skulls and their tongues dripping, salivating violently at the thought of making more money.
At this point many developers are held at a theoretical gunpoint having to implement many additional more manipulative and predatory money-printing mechanics, micro transactions, and mechanics like battle passes. A good example of this is artificial scarcity, of which we will touch on later in how this relates to ProtRP. For more information on Pay To Win, please click here to review an article providing several real examples of it in modern gaming.
In a brief summary, pay to win is paying real money gives a player a significant advantage over those who do not spend money.
Section 2: What is a Significant Advantage and Touching on Gacha/Lootboxes/Pay2Win Elements
A significant advantage is tough to properly identify as the word significant is mostly subjective. However, in the case of ProtectionRP, we can partially quantify some of the advantages garnered by spending money. The most obvious of which is the weapons obtained through Gacha mechanics, or lootboxes.
Quick side note regarding the difference between Gacha and Lootbox monetization systems (in the context of video games, not real life gacha collectibles): There are arguments as to whether Gacha == Lootbox or not. They are at the very least very similar, both offering a player to spend some form of currency on a chance to obtain a piece of virtual content. I will be using the words interchangeably in this thread, just wanted to get that out of the way.
Some of the crates in the shop currently, of which you can click here to view the menu to access them, contain weapons that cross the line of what is considered pay to win and I will explain why I feel that this is hard to object. The issues lie in many of the crates, but the best example I can give is the "credits" cases listed. You can click here to view their prices currently. It is worth noting the Poseidon crate has seen at least two price increases, going from around 100 credits give or take to now a whopping 825 credits.
Let us discuss what credits are worth in USD and also discuss what in game money is worth in USD. Click here to view what the cost of credits are in USD. Click here to see the price of credits when buying it using in game currency. These links are here to provide proof of their current pricings (as of writing).
Let us break it down into math.
$4,250,000 in game = 100 credits
2500 credits = $16.50 USD
So to obtain 2500 credits as a free player, you must obtain 25 of the 100 credit packages for $4,250,000 of in game money. That equates to $106,250,000 of in game money. Anyone who has played DarkRP understands this is not an easy feat. However, let us be fair and determine very roughly how much time may be required to obtain this in game.
We will assume our end user is doing something that is currently incredibly profitable and to my current knowledge (which would be much further reaching than an average new user likely due to my experience playing consistently) fuel refinery is a job that can generate tons of cash but does have a rather expensive starting capital to purchase the higher end upgrades needed to make it extremely profitable. I am cutting printers out of this as well, take that as you will.
I can say from my personal experience having a base on an island with the proper fuel holes, working efficiently, and using the grapple to sell to the NPCs can generate around $250,000 in game/5 minutes. This is assuming you are working incredibly efficiently, and have no need to stop. We will not be using this figure as for, again, an average new user, this seems unrealistic. Frankly, even for experienced players this is unrealistic. For the sake of argument and ease of math, let us say 10 minutes per $250,000 in game. This is a relatively comfortable ground to reach and can be held consistently when grinding. This can also account for having people steal from you and or you being raided.
By taking our earlier figure of $106,250,000 in game (the amount needed to purchase $16.50 USD worth of credits) and dividing it by $250,000 in game, we get 425. That number is important as it represents how many 10 minute sessions a player would need. We can now (approximately and admittedly very roughly) judge what our time is worth.
(425 sessions) x (10 minutes)
(amount of sessions needed) x (time per session) = 4,250 minutes.
4,250 minutes divided by 60 is 70.83 (repeating) hours. We can round down here to 70 for ease of discussion.*
Do you think that is fair after reading this? There are events and other ways to make money, I am certain you can likely make that much money faster than 70 hours if you have the knowledge and experience to do so. I would argue once you get into a groove and have plenty of space you should be able to cut the time needed in half. 35 hours sounds much more in line with my personal experience making fuel. But I also have a large well made base, a set of decent permanent weapons from donating, friends to help defend my base, and donator level printers down during this.
So whether it is 70 hours, 35 hours, or somewhere in between, do you genuinely believe that grind is fair to an end user when factoring in the prices of the most expensive crates VS what they offer?
Let me cram this here, it is NOT a donation if you are actively paying to receive benefits. You are paying for a service. Anyone who has purchased custom class options can attest to this service being generally rather lengthy and painful despite paying a considerable amount of money.
Section 3: Manipulative and Predatory Behaviors that Cause Abusive Long Term Habits
To make your life easier and a bit more efficient, many players would likely want to grind for the grappling hook first things first, which as shown when you click here costs 2500 credits exactly. What a convenient price to implement. Probably a coincidence, right? Likely not. Similar to the "40% off sale" that has existed for (as far as I know) the entire time I have played here (over a year) these are intentionally tempting and subtly manipulative tactics. These, however, are but minor infractions on what the lootbox/gacha system is currently on ProtRp.
There are more and more weapons releasing (Mystifier, Railgun, many other Glitched weapons) in new crates that are significantly stronger than anything we have seen prior. The chances of getting these high end weapons are not listed in any location I could find (I will update this post if they are). If someone has these weapons and you are fighting them, you (unless they are not paying attention to their screens) will lose with even current Supporter+ permanent weapons. There is room here to drop a fat "skill issue" but you can analyze the exact damage each weapon does and come to this exact conclusion.
If these weapons are not considered pay to win in your mind, ask yourself why Smokey (the owner of ProtRP for those reading who are not aware) has accepted large sums of money for certain weapons on their custom job/classes. Is it because they look cool or are associated with a sort of "status"? Perhaps partially, but at the end of the day, weapons that 1-2 hit, are more accurate, reload faster, and provide a significant advantage in raw statistics are pay to win.
I am certain there are ways to raid these people if they are AFK, but if more than one of them raid you, you are boned. Especially if you are a solo player. So much for earning all that money in 35 hours, huh? Quick side note, candidly, I am part of the problem for having purchased and enabled this behavior primarily before it manifested into what it is today. I accept that and you can account it into my bias on this topic.
Another quick example, there are currently player models (looks only) that are Gacha / Lootbox walled. These are extremely rare and are also predatory, however, at least they do not provide any particular gameplay advantage. These I still believe to be unacceptable for players, but when games like Genshin Impact get away with significantly more and make billions, there is not much we can do beyond voicing an opinion and speaking more importantly with our wallets.
I am no psychologist, nor will I act like I am even beginning to be qualified to touch on what quantifies as an addiction, especially in a virtual space such as a Garry's Mod server.
Here is an article explaining some dangers of Gacha in easy to interpret text.
Here is an academic paper explaining some background information on the incomes and factors associated with those most susceptible to these kinds of addictions.
Here is another (paywalled sadly) academic research paper, this one on how a group of Singapore people studied specifically associated the gacha items collected with their own self image and expression of their selves.
Here is another academic paper, this one specifically relating to how loneliness is correlated to VGA (or video game addiction).
Many of the examples above are relating to mobile games, but the same principles apply on all games. I won't act like I can interpret these large academic research papers entirely, so I will quote the part most can reference and understand. The abstract and or conclusion.
The final one I linked, discussing loneliness and its' connection to spending money and video game addiction as a whole has this conclusion:
"In conclusion, the findings of this study were able to fill the gaps of previous literature on the topic of gacha games and VGA. In reference to the findings, it was determined that there was a significant positive correlation between loneliness and VGA. Furthermore, those with high levels of neuroticism had a higher tendency for VGA, however, the same could not be said for the aspect of extraversion as those with low levels of extraversion had similar tendencies, albeit deemed insignificant. Lastly, it was determined that there was a significant correlation between the motivational factors that motivates a player to partake in in-game spending in relation to VGA; with a strong emphasis on character-related factors having higher priority. The current study serves to not only be an extension to prior studies but also as an opportunity for other possible avenues to be explored for a better understanding on VGA." (IDA F. ISMAIL*, MIMI FITRIANA, CHAN L. CHUIN)
Section 4: It is Only a Video Game, you are Taking this too Seriously
This is a preemptive counter argument to those who will inevitably say this in viewing this post.
You may not be the demographic this hurts, but there are many who are hurt by this and many more who will be in the coming future. Especially if Smokey continues down this route of adding more and more lootbox/gacha mechanics to the game. These can severely hurt the mental, physical, and fiscal health of an individual. Said individual struggling from addiction could very well be a child considering Garry's Mod's demographics and the amount of underage users on this server.
If I have to explain to you or break down why this is dangerous and unhealthy, you need to reassess what this is. This is a video game server for players to roleplay and have fun on together. This is not a fashion show, a contest, nor is it any kind of platform to display status or wealth. You reading this may not be hurt by these addictions, nor may you be at any risk to mental, physical, or fiscal harm. But some are, and the more predatory it gets, the worse it is for those users.
If it is pushed more and more towards this predatory model which is seemingly inevitable as Smokey lines his pocket with the sweetest of currencies from us users, it will hurt many users, beyond the damage is has likely already caused. I have not even touched on the various things custom classes can have (like constant access to breaching charges, 200 health, full armor, and amazing perma weapons) that essentially nuke any arguments against this server having massive pay to win elements. That might seem like a "No s**t, it's a Garry's Mod server, dude" moment, and while I agree, the aforementioned research articles and experiences from players can highlight exactly how this can be threatening to the health of the very same players that give this server the amazing community it maintains.
Section 5: Solutions and a Conclusion
How can we "solve" this? Not including features for Smokey to make money is ridiculous and unacceptable. Smokey deserves money for the excellent community they have manifested here on Garry's Mod. They should be able to make enough to cover the server expenses and pocket extra.
This is the part that I would love input on, how do you, the person who (thank you, DM me if you are here) read to this point think Smokey can implement features to generate revenue that do not risk any players mental, physical or fiscal well being?
I realize this thread is all over the place and not incredibly well organized. I could have spent an additional hour or so touching it up and making it really shine, but I do not believe I need to in order to illustrate my points. I welcome all criticism towards the words I have thrown here. I spew a ton here rambling, so it is only fair that you respond with whatever criticism you have and I hear you out. It is likely I will reply ASAP to all responses if any come in. I know there are parts I am likely missing or poorly explaining, so please, take time to reply. Even if you have a simple sentence of info to add, it is more than nothing and I wish for all who read this to interact with this post in some way shape or form.
Thank you for reading this, until we speak again, please have an amazing rest of your day.
*EDIT 01/24/23: I realized now through a reply down below that these figures are likely even more accurate than I thought. Fuel Refinery requires donor rank to be able to grind the most efficiently. I did not get into donor printers or upgrades, but understand that they too pressure users into spending money, and are unhealthy. Thank you, Tesco!
Section 1: Defining What it Means to be Pay to Win
Let us begin by defining what pay to win means in an actual game environment. Pay to win can be defined as any option that allows a player to pay money to progress or receive an advantage against players who have not spent the money they have. This area can be hard to define for many online games. Is a game pay to win the moment you can purchase an XP boost to obtain levels faster than other players? Not necessarily depending on what mechanics exist to allow players who do not pay any money to earn the same exact amount of XP in the game.
Some developers will take note of this, saying that free players can spend additional time on their game to obtain the same exact levels as the player who paid to obtain the aforementioned boost. The idea here is to find a line drawn in the sand, so to speak. In this scenario, how much time does the player who is not paying any money have to invest to obtain the same amount of levels obtained by the user who paid money? You want to reward players for purchasing (we will touch on the word "donate" later) items like an XP boost while balancing it out for players who are free to play. At least, that is what developers who intend to make a healthy and fun game for players would do. However, the oh so mighty marketing department of many major corporations crashes the door down with their eyes popping from their skulls and their tongues dripping, salivating violently at the thought of making more money.
At this point many developers are held at a theoretical gunpoint having to implement many additional more manipulative and predatory money-printing mechanics, micro transactions, and mechanics like battle passes. A good example of this is artificial scarcity, of which we will touch on later in how this relates to ProtRP. For more information on Pay To Win, please click here to review an article providing several real examples of it in modern gaming.
In a brief summary, pay to win is paying real money gives a player a significant advantage over those who do not spend money.
Section 2: What is a Significant Advantage and Touching on Gacha/Lootboxes/Pay2Win Elements
A significant advantage is tough to properly identify as the word significant is mostly subjective. However, in the case of ProtectionRP, we can partially quantify some of the advantages garnered by spending money. The most obvious of which is the weapons obtained through Gacha mechanics, or lootboxes.
Quick side note regarding the difference between Gacha and Lootbox monetization systems (in the context of video games, not real life gacha collectibles): There are arguments as to whether Gacha == Lootbox or not. They are at the very least very similar, both offering a player to spend some form of currency on a chance to obtain a piece of virtual content. I will be using the words interchangeably in this thread, just wanted to get that out of the way.
Some of the crates in the shop currently, of which you can click here to view the menu to access them, contain weapons that cross the line of what is considered pay to win and I will explain why I feel that this is hard to object. The issues lie in many of the crates, but the best example I can give is the "credits" cases listed. You can click here to view their prices currently. It is worth noting the Poseidon crate has seen at least two price increases, going from around 100 credits give or take to now a whopping 825 credits.
Let us discuss what credits are worth in USD and also discuss what in game money is worth in USD. Click here to view what the cost of credits are in USD. Click here to see the price of credits when buying it using in game currency. These links are here to provide proof of their current pricings (as of writing).
Let us break it down into math.
$4,250,000 in game = 100 credits
2500 credits = $16.50 USD
So to obtain 2500 credits as a free player, you must obtain 25 of the 100 credit packages for $4,250,000 of in game money. That equates to $106,250,000 of in game money. Anyone who has played DarkRP understands this is not an easy feat. However, let us be fair and determine very roughly how much time may be required to obtain this in game.
We will assume our end user is doing something that is currently incredibly profitable and to my current knowledge (which would be much further reaching than an average new user likely due to my experience playing consistently) fuel refinery is a job that can generate tons of cash but does have a rather expensive starting capital to purchase the higher end upgrades needed to make it extremely profitable. I am cutting printers out of this as well, take that as you will.
I can say from my personal experience having a base on an island with the proper fuel holes, working efficiently, and using the grapple to sell to the NPCs can generate around $250,000 in game/5 minutes. This is assuming you are working incredibly efficiently, and have no need to stop. We will not be using this figure as for, again, an average new user, this seems unrealistic. Frankly, even for experienced players this is unrealistic. For the sake of argument and ease of math, let us say 10 minutes per $250,000 in game. This is a relatively comfortable ground to reach and can be held consistently when grinding. This can also account for having people steal from you and or you being raided.
By taking our earlier figure of $106,250,000 in game (the amount needed to purchase $16.50 USD worth of credits) and dividing it by $250,000 in game, we get 425. That number is important as it represents how many 10 minute sessions a player would need. We can now (approximately and admittedly very roughly) judge what our time is worth.
(425 sessions) x (10 minutes)
(amount of sessions needed) x (time per session) = 4,250 minutes.
4,250 minutes divided by 60 is 70.83 (repeating) hours. We can round down here to 70 for ease of discussion.*
Do you think that is fair after reading this? There are events and other ways to make money, I am certain you can likely make that much money faster than 70 hours if you have the knowledge and experience to do so. I would argue once you get into a groove and have plenty of space you should be able to cut the time needed in half. 35 hours sounds much more in line with my personal experience making fuel. But I also have a large well made base, a set of decent permanent weapons from donating, friends to help defend my base, and donator level printers down during this.
So whether it is 70 hours, 35 hours, or somewhere in between, do you genuinely believe that grind is fair to an end user when factoring in the prices of the most expensive crates VS what they offer?
Let me cram this here, it is NOT a donation if you are actively paying to receive benefits. You are paying for a service. Anyone who has purchased custom class options can attest to this service being generally rather lengthy and painful despite paying a considerable amount of money.
Section 3: Manipulative and Predatory Behaviors that Cause Abusive Long Term Habits
To make your life easier and a bit more efficient, many players would likely want to grind for the grappling hook first things first, which as shown when you click here costs 2500 credits exactly. What a convenient price to implement. Probably a coincidence, right? Likely not. Similar to the "40% off sale" that has existed for (as far as I know) the entire time I have played here (over a year) these are intentionally tempting and subtly manipulative tactics. These, however, are but minor infractions on what the lootbox/gacha system is currently on ProtRp.
There are more and more weapons releasing (Mystifier, Railgun, many other Glitched weapons) in new crates that are significantly stronger than anything we have seen prior. The chances of getting these high end weapons are not listed in any location I could find (I will update this post if they are). If someone has these weapons and you are fighting them, you (unless they are not paying attention to their screens) will lose with even current Supporter+ permanent weapons. There is room here to drop a fat "skill issue" but you can analyze the exact damage each weapon does and come to this exact conclusion.
If these weapons are not considered pay to win in your mind, ask yourself why Smokey (the owner of ProtRP for those reading who are not aware) has accepted large sums of money for certain weapons on their custom job/classes. Is it because they look cool or are associated with a sort of "status"? Perhaps partially, but at the end of the day, weapons that 1-2 hit, are more accurate, reload faster, and provide a significant advantage in raw statistics are pay to win.
I am certain there are ways to raid these people if they are AFK, but if more than one of them raid you, you are boned. Especially if you are a solo player. So much for earning all that money in 35 hours, huh? Quick side note, candidly, I am part of the problem for having purchased and enabled this behavior primarily before it manifested into what it is today. I accept that and you can account it into my bias on this topic.
Another quick example, there are currently player models (looks only) that are Gacha / Lootbox walled. These are extremely rare and are also predatory, however, at least they do not provide any particular gameplay advantage. These I still believe to be unacceptable for players, but when games like Genshin Impact get away with significantly more and make billions, there is not much we can do beyond voicing an opinion and speaking more importantly with our wallets.
I am no psychologist, nor will I act like I am even beginning to be qualified to touch on what quantifies as an addiction, especially in a virtual space such as a Garry's Mod server.
Here is an article explaining some dangers of Gacha in easy to interpret text.
Here is an academic paper explaining some background information on the incomes and factors associated with those most susceptible to these kinds of addictions.
Here is another (paywalled sadly) academic research paper, this one on how a group of Singapore people studied specifically associated the gacha items collected with their own self image and expression of their selves.
Here is another academic paper, this one specifically relating to how loneliness is correlated to VGA (or video game addiction).
Many of the examples above are relating to mobile games, but the same principles apply on all games. I won't act like I can interpret these large academic research papers entirely, so I will quote the part most can reference and understand. The abstract and or conclusion.
The final one I linked, discussing loneliness and its' connection to spending money and video game addiction as a whole has this conclusion:
"In conclusion, the findings of this study were able to fill the gaps of previous literature on the topic of gacha games and VGA. In reference to the findings, it was determined that there was a significant positive correlation between loneliness and VGA. Furthermore, those with high levels of neuroticism had a higher tendency for VGA, however, the same could not be said for the aspect of extraversion as those with low levels of extraversion had similar tendencies, albeit deemed insignificant. Lastly, it was determined that there was a significant correlation between the motivational factors that motivates a player to partake in in-game spending in relation to VGA; with a strong emphasis on character-related factors having higher priority. The current study serves to not only be an extension to prior studies but also as an opportunity for other possible avenues to be explored for a better understanding on VGA." (IDA F. ISMAIL*, MIMI FITRIANA, CHAN L. CHUIN)
Section 4: It is Only a Video Game, you are Taking this too Seriously
This is a preemptive counter argument to those who will inevitably say this in viewing this post.
You may not be the demographic this hurts, but there are many who are hurt by this and many more who will be in the coming future. Especially if Smokey continues down this route of adding more and more lootbox/gacha mechanics to the game. These can severely hurt the mental, physical, and fiscal health of an individual. Said individual struggling from addiction could very well be a child considering Garry's Mod's demographics and the amount of underage users on this server.
If I have to explain to you or break down why this is dangerous and unhealthy, you need to reassess what this is. This is a video game server for players to roleplay and have fun on together. This is not a fashion show, a contest, nor is it any kind of platform to display status or wealth. You reading this may not be hurt by these addictions, nor may you be at any risk to mental, physical, or fiscal harm. But some are, and the more predatory it gets, the worse it is for those users.
If it is pushed more and more towards this predatory model which is seemingly inevitable as Smokey lines his pocket with the sweetest of currencies from us users, it will hurt many users, beyond the damage is has likely already caused. I have not even touched on the various things custom classes can have (like constant access to breaching charges, 200 health, full armor, and amazing perma weapons) that essentially nuke any arguments against this server having massive pay to win elements. That might seem like a "No s**t, it's a Garry's Mod server, dude" moment, and while I agree, the aforementioned research articles and experiences from players can highlight exactly how this can be threatening to the health of the very same players that give this server the amazing community it maintains.
Section 5: Solutions and a Conclusion
How can we "solve" this? Not including features for Smokey to make money is ridiculous and unacceptable. Smokey deserves money for the excellent community they have manifested here on Garry's Mod. They should be able to make enough to cover the server expenses and pocket extra.
This is the part that I would love input on, how do you, the person who (thank you, DM me if you are here) read to this point think Smokey can implement features to generate revenue that do not risk any players mental, physical or fiscal well being?
I realize this thread is all over the place and not incredibly well organized. I could have spent an additional hour or so touching it up and making it really shine, but I do not believe I need to in order to illustrate my points. I welcome all criticism towards the words I have thrown here. I spew a ton here rambling, so it is only fair that you respond with whatever criticism you have and I hear you out. It is likely I will reply ASAP to all responses if any come in. I know there are parts I am likely missing or poorly explaining, so please, take time to reply. Even if you have a simple sentence of info to add, it is more than nothing and I wish for all who read this to interact with this post in some way shape or form.
Thank you for reading this, until we speak again, please have an amazing rest of your day.
*EDIT 01/24/23: I realized now through a reply down below that these figures are likely even more accurate than I thought. Fuel Refinery requires donor rank to be able to grind the most efficiently. I did not get into donor printers or upgrades, but understand that they too pressure users into spending money, and are unhealthy. Thank you, Tesco!
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